Legislature(1999 - 2000)

03/16/2000 03:00 PM House FIN

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
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HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE                                                                                                         
MARCH 16, 2000                                                                                                                  
3:00 P.M.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
TAPE HFC 00 - 70, Side 1.                                                                                                       
TAPE HFC 00 - 70, Side 2.                                                                                                       
TAPE HFC 00 - 71, Side 1.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CALL TO ORDER                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Therriault called the House Finance Committee                                                                          
meeting to order at 3:00 P.M.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
PRESENT                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Therriault   Representative Foster                                                                                     
Representative Austerman  Representative Moses                                                                                  
Representative Bunde   Representative Phillips                                                                                  
Representative J. Davies  Representative Williams                                                                               
Representative G. Davis                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Grussendorf and Co-Chair Mulder were not                                                                         
present for the meeting.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
ALSO PRESENT                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Carl Morgan; Matt Robus, Deputy Director,                                                                        
Division of Wildlife, Department of Fish and Game; Dwight                                                                       
Perkins, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Labor and Work                                                                      
Force Development; Ron Hull, Deputy Director, Employment                                                                        
Security Division, Department of Labor and Work Force                                                                           
Development; Susan Schrader, Alaska Conservation Voters,                                                                        
Juneau; Joel Bennett, Defenders of Wildlife, Juneau; Nanci                                                                      
Jones, Director, Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend Program,                                                                        
Department of Revenue.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
TESTIFIED VIA TELECONFERENCE                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Carl Jack, RuralCap, Anchorage; Pete Buist, Co-Chair of the                                                                     
Coalition for the Alaska Way of Life, Fairbanks; Jason                                                                          
Elson, Fire Chief, Kenai Fire Department, Kenai.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SUMMARY                                                                                                                         
HB 204 An Act relating to elk farming.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
HB 204 was POSTPONED for further consideration.                                                                                 
HB 337 An Act relating to claims against permanent fund                                                                         
dividends to pay certain amounts owed to state                                                                                  
agencies and to fees for processing claims against                                                                              
and assignments of permanent fund dividends; and                                                                                
providing for an effective date.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CS HB 337 (JUD) was reported out of Committee with                                                                              
a "do pass" recommendation and with a fiscal note                                                                               
by the Department of Revenue dated 2/23/00 and a                                                                                
zero fiscal note by the Department of Labor and                                                                                 
Workforce Development dated 2/4/00.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
HB 380 An Act relating to contributions to the Alaska                                                                           
Fire Standards Council and to an insurer tax                                                                                    
credit for those contributions; and providing for                                                                               
an effective date.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CS HB 380 (L&C) was reported out of Committee with                                                                              
a "do pass" recommendation and with a new fiscal                                                                                
note by the Department of Community & Economic                                                                                  
Development and a zero note by the Department of                                                                                
Public Safety dated 2/23/00.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
HJR 56 Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the                                                                        
State of Alaska prohibiting certain initiatives                                                                                 
relating to wildlife.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
HJR 56 was reported out of Committee with a "do                                                                                 
pass" recommendation and with a fiscal note by the                                                                              
Office of the Lt. Governor dated 3/3/00.                                                                                        
HOUSE BILL NO. 380                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
An Act relating to contributions to the Alaska Fire                                                                             
Standards Council and to an insurer tax credit for                                                                              
those contributions; and providing for an effective                                                                             
date.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Therriault stated that HB 380 would create an                                                                          
insurance tax credit for contributions to the Alaska Fire                                                                       
Standards Council for fire services training programs.                                                                          
Development of fire standards that address the unique                                                                           
challenges posted by Alaska's climate will benefit Alaskans                                                                     
as the incidence of casualty and property loss goes down,                                                                       
including fatalities.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
The Alaska Fire Standards Council will be established on                                                                        
July 1, 2000 as directed in legislation passed by the 20th                                                                      
Alaska State Legislature.  It will adopt minimum standards                                                                      
for employment and curriculum requirements for firefighters                                                                     
and fire instructors and their certification.  The                                                                              
legislation would establish and maintain firefighter and                                                                        
fire instructor-training programs.  The certification of                                                                        
firefighters would be optional.  While the national                                                                             
standards already exist, they do not take into account many                                                                     
of the unique qualities which Alaska's climate presents.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative G. Davis suggested that action would be                                                                          
"taking from one hand and giving to the other" as it all                                                                        
comes from the general fund.  Co-Chair Therriault advised                                                                       
that the loss to the State Treasury would be $150 thousand                                                                      
dollars, while the revenue generated would be $220 thousand                                                                     
dollars creating a net gain of $70 thousand dollars.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
JASON ELSON, (TESTIFIED VIA TELECONFERENCE), CHIEF, KENAI                                                                       
FIRE DEPARTMENT, KENAI, commented that a major factor is                                                                        
that there has been a commitment made through previous                                                                          
legislation to establish the Fire Standard Council.  The                                                                        
Council was assigned to find alternative funding methods.                                                                       
HB 380 allows the Council to determine funding by offering a                                                                    
tax credit to the insurance companies for the premiums that                                                                     
they collect for fire insurance.  That action allows the                                                                        
Council to stay within the philosophy of no new taxes by                                                                        
offering a credit for contribution made.  Mr. Elson noted                                                                       
that the insurance industry has looked favorably at the                                                                         
proposal and that it seems to benefit everyone, while                                                                           
funding the Council to establish the training standards for                                                                     
firefighters throughout the State of Alaska.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde asked how the legislation would impact the                                                                     
Division of Insurance.  Co-Chair Therriault pointed out it                                                                      
would not take money directly from that entity.  The funding                                                                    
would be taken from the general fund and would not cut what                                                                     
had been budgeted for the Division of Insurance's                                                                               
operations.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde questioned how the money transfer would                                                                        
occur.  Co-Chair Therriault replied that the Division of                                                                        
Insurance generates more money for the State Treasury than                                                                      
it costs to operate.  He added, it would be a potential                                                                         
funding source and that the Legislature would control how                                                                       
much would be appropriated.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies requested further clarification of                                                                     
the mechanism.  Co-Chair Therriault replied that there would                                                                    
be a separate contribution to the account and then take a                                                                       
corresponding decrement would be taken to the State taxes.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Foster MOVED to report CS HB 380 (L&C) out of                                                                    
Committee with individual recommendations and with the                                                                          
accompanying fiscal notes.  There being NO OBJECTION, it was                                                                    
so ordered.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CS HB 380 (L&C) was reported out of Committee with a "do                                                                        
pass" recommendation and with a fiscal note by the                                                                              
Department of Community & Economic Development and a zero                                                                       
note by the Department of Public Safety dated 2/23/00.                                                                          
HOUSE BILL NO. 337                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
An Act relating to claims against permanent fund                                                                                
dividends to pay certain amounts owed to state agencies                                                                         
and to fees for processing claims against and                                                                                   
assignments of permanent fund dividends; and providing                                                                          
for an effective date.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
DWIGHT PERKINS, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND                                                                    
WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT, commented that some State agencies                                                                       
are currently allowed to seek from individuals overdue                                                                          
payments of money due the State through a simple                                                                                
administrative collection of permanent fund dividends.  But                                                                     
most State agencies still need to use a time consuming and                                                                      
costly court action to attach an individual's permanent fund                                                                    
dividend.  It makes sense for all State agencies to have                                                                        
access to the "fast track" method of collecting from a                                                                          
person who receives a dividend while in arrears with                                                                            
payments lawfully due to the State.  The proposed bill                                                                          
accomplishes that change in law.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
He continued, a State agency would not be required to use                                                                       
the new procedures for collection.  Any agency that elects                                                                      
to use the new procedures would be required to notify the                                                                       
individual of the claim with a fair opportunity for a                                                                           
hearing at which the individual could contest the agency's                                                                      
claim to the dividend.  If a hearing is not requested or the                                                                    
claim is resolved in favor of the State agency, the agency                                                                      
may collect the money from the individual's dividend without                                                                    
filing a court action.  Mr. Perkins emphasized that passage                                                                     
of the measure gives State agencies an additional tool to                                                                       
recover money that is lawfully owed to the State under                                                                          
existing law.  He outlined the differences between the three                                                                    
versions of the bill contained in member's packets.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Therriault questioned the Department of Labor and                                                                      
Workforce Development's fiscal note.  Mr. Perkins explained                                                                     
the change between the various totals for the five years.                                                                       
He noted it calculated interest penalties from the received                                                                     
money.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
RON HULL, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, EMPLOYMENT SECURITY DIVISION,                                                                        
DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT, added the                                                                        
first page of the fiscal note represents the current fiscal                                                                     
year.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Perkins pointed out that this was originally the                                                                            
Department of Labor and Workforce Development's legislation.                                                                    
In the process, other State agencies believed that more was                                                                     
needed.  The Administration does not have a problem with the                                                                    
State Affairs version which includes other departments.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies requested an example of a                                                                              
"hypothetical situation" resulting in a person owing money                                                                      
through the recommended legislation.  Mr. Hull replied that                                                                     
there are a number of methods in which benefits are over                                                                        
paid.  The largest problem is in collection of over paid                                                                        
unemployment.  Cross match information often shows that a                                                                       
recipient is working when they do not claim that they are.                                                                      
That would be a fraud case.  Employers send quarterly                                                                           
documents indicating how much an employee was paid per week.                                                                    
The appeal process is undertaken and it could then be                                                                           
transferred to a criminal court.  Hearing officers initially                                                                    
address the case.  Mr. Hull stated that if there is an                                                                          
appeal and it is upheld, the claimant could go to Superior                                                                      
Court.  He noted that the due process issue is well covered.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies pointed out that the claimant has                                                                      
30 days to appeal.  He asked if the claimant did not respond                                                                    
in that period, would they then be garnished.  Mr. Hull                                                                         
explained that the Department is not "heavy handed".  Before                                                                    
the Department approaches this, the claimant must first be                                                                      
120 days in arrears.  Taking the dividend is the                                                                                
Department's last resort.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Therriault attempted to clarify the process                                                                            
undertaken to make a garnishment.  Mr. Hull explained that                                                                      
to garnish the dividend, would depend on why there was no                                                                       
response.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Perkins explained that the address used by the                                                                              
Department is the one used to mail the dividend to.  Co-                                                                        
Chair Therriault asked if only the garnished persons would                                                                      
be the ones who had established a payment plan.  Mr. Hull                                                                       
explained that not everyone has set up a payment plan and                                                                       
that all recipients could be garnished.  Mr. Hull added that                                                                    
the Division's collection rate on the overpayment area is in                                                                    
the 90% percentile.  Problems exist with the fraudulent                                                                         
payments.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative Bunde voiced concern that notification did                                                                       
not take place through a registered letter.  Mr. Hull                                                                           
replied that if the person could show that they had not                                                                         
received the mail or had not opened it, then their repeal                                                                       
rights are reopened.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde asked about the continuity of the                                                                              
procedure.  Mr. Hull replied that all procedures used by the                                                                    
Division are in writing.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies inquired the number of cases this                                                                      
amount of revenue represents.  Mr. Hull replied that right                                                                      
now, the Division is working on cases that are six years                                                                        
old.  Yearly, there are about two thousand people, half of                                                                      
which could be fraudulent.  Fraud for 1997 was $1.8 million                                                                     
dollars; for 1998 it was $1.5 million dollars.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Therriault inquired how the garnishment process was                                                                    
handled.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
NANCI JONES, DIRECTOR, ALASKA PERMANENT FUND DIVIDEND                                                                           
PROGRAM, DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE, explained that when a State                                                                     
agency files a garnishment, that case is given a number to                                                                      
track it.  Any person can track that with the assigned                                                                          
number and it can be tracked through the department claiming                                                                    
the dispute.  Only if there is a release from the agency,                                                                       
will the action can be stopped.  The Permanent Fund Dividend                                                                    
Division would work directly with the Department of Labor                                                                       
and Workforce Development.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Foster MOVED to HB 337 out of Committee with                                                                     
individual recommendations and with the accompanying fiscal                                                                     
notes.  There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CS HB 337 (JUD) was reported out of Committee with a "do                                                                        
pass" recommendation and with a fiscal note by the                                                                              
Department of Labor and Workforce Development dated 2/4/00                                                                      
and a zero note by the Department of Revenue dated 2/23/00.                                                                     
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 56                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State                                                                         
of Alaska prohibiting certain initiatives relating to                                                                           
wildlife.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CARL MORGAN introduced HJR 56.  He explained                                                                     
that the legislation would remove wildlife management from                                                                      
the ballot initiative process in Alaska.  The framers of our                                                                    
constitution restricted the ballot initiative process in                                                                        
Article XI, Section 7, of the Alaska Constitution.  Section                                                                     
7 exempts certain subjects from the ballot and referendum                                                                       
process.  He stated that wildlife management is an                                                                              
appropriate subject for exemption.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative Morgan commented that Alaskans best manage                                                                       
wildlife interests in Alaska.  Removing wildlife from the                                                                       
ballot and referendum process will ensure that wildlife                                                                         
decisions are made in Alaska based on sound science, prudent                                                                    
management, and in an open and fair process.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Morgan continued, Alaska is not alone in the                                                                     
fight.  In 1998, the citizens of Utah and Minnesota passed                                                                      
constitutional amendments to protect wildlife management and                                                                    
hunting in their states.  Presently, there are                                                                                  
constitutional amendments to protect wildlife management and                                                                    
traditional wildlife uses working their way through the                                                                         
state legislatures of Arizona, Idaho and North Dakota.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
He concluded that HJR 56 would amount to an amendment of the                                                                    
Constitution, not a revision, and would be within the power                                                                     
of the Legislature.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Therriault encouraged Committee members to notice                                                                      
the letters of support included in member's packets.                                                                            
[Copies on File].                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Austerman asked if the legislation covered                                                                       
all wildlife.  Representative Morgan replied that it covered                                                                    
all wildlife but not fish.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies questioned the scope of the                                                                            
initiative.  Representative Morgan did not know.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies asked how a wild life issue could                                                                      
differ from any other issue.  Representative Morgan spoke to                                                                    
the sustained yield principal.  He noted that the initiative                                                                    
would be wild life taking care of wild life.  Representative                                                                    
J. Davies asked why this issue was different from other                                                                         
issues, not "applying that logic to those other issues".                                                                        
Representative Morgan replied that the Advisory Board                                                                           
meetings are opened and all scientific facts are put on the                                                                     
table.  He emphasized what an important issue "wildlife" is                                                                     
to the Alaska Native people.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
(TAPE CHANGE, HFC 00 - 70, Side 2).                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde asked why the legislation did not include                                                                      
fish.  Representative Morgan responded that fish have a                                                                         
large cash economy and that he did not want to address that                                                                     
in this legislation.  He indicated that the Board of Fish                                                                       
currently is doing a good job.  Vice Chair Bunde countered                                                                      
that the legislation would not pass with the inclusion of                                                                       
fish.  Co-Chair Therriault interjected that was not                                                                             
Representative Morgan's "battle".                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CARL JACK, (TESTIFIED VIA TELECONFERENCE), RURAL CAP,                                                                           
ANCHORAGE, spoke to the benefit that the legislation would                                                                      
have on the clients that he serves through Rural Cap.  The                                                                      
conditions in rural Alaska has high unemployment and high                                                                       
costs compared to the urban areas.  Those people depend on                                                                      
wildlife to meet their needs. At this time, given the                                                                           
current policies regarding the initiative process, people                                                                       
such as animals rights group, determine ballot initiatives.                                                                     
He believed that those people dictate policy in wildlife                                                                        
management and make criminals out of those that are trying                                                                      
to meet their survival needs. Such considerations are not                                                                       
based on sound scientific principles.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Jack concluded that HJR 56 would protect the integrity                                                                      
of approaching sound management functions which have been                                                                       
used by the Board of Game and the Board of Fish in wildlife                                                                     
management to carry out the sustained use principle embodied                                                                    
in the Alaska State Constitution.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde pointed out that previous testimony                                                                            
indicated that the largest percentage of food used for the                                                                      
rural area is fish.  Mr. Jack acknowledged that 60% of the                                                                      
subsistence resource is fish.  However, people in rural                                                                         
Alaska also depend on wild game.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Phillips inquired, during the work                                                                               
initiative, if there had been many people in Mr. Jack's                                                                         
district who attempted to get signatures.  Mr. Jack replied                                                                     
that most of the signatures on ballot Initiative #9 were                                                                        
gathered in the urban areas.  He stated that the manner in                                                                      
which the initiative was explained was misleading.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
PETE BUIST, (TESTIFIED VIA TELECONFERENCE), CO-CHAIR OF THE                                                                     
COALITION FOR THE ALASKA WAY OF LIFE, FAIRBANKS, spoke in                                                                       
support of the legislation.  He stated that he had spent a                                                                      
lot of time over the past few years working to get hunters                                                                      
and trappers to come together on the important issue that is                                                                    
common to both urban and rural hunters and trappers.  He                                                                        
emphasized that this concern is an "immediate threat".                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
In 1996, Mr. Buist stated that "We lost same day airborne"                                                                      
because they were unprepared.  In 1998, the wolf snare                                                                          
initiative was won but that battle was expensive.  He noted                                                                     
that it is not fair to ask Alaska's hunters and trappers to                                                                     
keep coming up with that amount of money every two years to                                                                     
fight big outside interest groups.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde interjected that politics and emotions                                                                         
should be removed from wildlife management. Mr. Buist                                                                           
commented that after going through the last fight, he                                                                           
anticipates what to expect and that it probably will be a                                                                       
"nasty" campaign.  It will hopefully place wildlife                                                                             
management on the same bases as science.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MATT ROBUS, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF WILDLIFE,                                                                              
DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME, spoke in opposition to HJR 56.                                                                     
He noted that HJR 56 proposes to amend the Alaska                                                                               
Constitution by prohibiting its citizens from enacting laws                                                                     
dealing with the harvest and management of wildlife through                                                                     
the initiative process.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
The Alaska Department of Fish and Game does not support the                                                                     
proposal because it would remove a way for the public to                                                                        
contribute to making the policy required to compliment the                                                                      
Department's wildlife management expertise.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Robus noted that wildlife management has been described                                                                     
as a mixture of art and science, and to be successful must                                                                      
be composed of several distinct components. Scientific                                                                          
research and management techniques, leavened by judgement                                                                       
gained from many years of observation and experience, are                                                                       
employed to achieve the goals and objectives desired by the                                                                     
Alaskan people for the conservation and utilization of their                                                                    
wildlife resources. However, there are often multiple                                                                           
management options, each of which is biologically                                                                               
sustainable. Making the choices between these alternatives                                                                      
is not a scientific exercise, but one of public policy. The                                                                     
initiative process is one avenue for policy to be                                                                               
promulgated through the direct participation of voters.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Robus agreed that it is true that wildlife initiatives                                                                      
can result in problematic policies.  Wildlife management                                                                        
does involve scientific and special expertise, but so do                                                                        
many other complex governmental functions. It is unclear why                                                                    
that wildlife issues should be singled out as being too                                                                         
complex for the public to understand.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
He commented that it is worth remembering that a law enacted                                                                    
by initiative can be amended by the legislature to correct                                                                      
errors, or to reverse unintended consequences that are                                                                          
harmful to the resource or the public. After 2 years, such a                                                                    
law can be repealed entirely if the legislature believes                                                                        
that it is an inappropriate public policy. These checks and                                                                     
balances to the initiative process minimize the risk that an                                                                    
initiative will cause any lasting harm to Alaska's wildlife.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Robus concluded, by removing wildlife management issues                                                                     
from the reach of the initiative process will lead to more                                                                      
conflict. Without the opportunity to directly express views                                                                     
about wildlife, the public's frustration will mount and will                                                                    
make the job of wildlife management increasingly difficult.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Williams asked about the reference to                                                                            
"uninformed voters".  Mr. Robus agreed that there have been                                                                     
times when the process has been manipulated so that voters                                                                      
have not voted on the real issue.  People are often not                                                                         
provided the full information on the issue.  Representative                                                                     
Williams asked the testifier if biological science was                                                                          
considered "not good" for managing wildlife.  Mr. Robus                                                                         
replied that one of the problems in managing wildlife is                                                                        
that there can be several different outcomes in what could                                                                      
be sustainable, which is not always based on science but                                                                        
rather is sometimes based on a policy call.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Williams commented that he did not understand                                                                    
the testimony.  He understood Mr. Robus to say that "science                                                                    
is not good".  Mr. Robus replied that the State does depend                                                                     
on science and is proud of what has been developed.  He                                                                         
emphasized that there are always choices that must be made                                                                      
at a certain point. You use the science to determine what                                                                       
the results of those choices will be and then make policy                                                                       
choices as to what is best suited for Alaska's people.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative Williams asked if the Department believed                                                                        
that the wolf initiative was good.  Mr. Robus replied that                                                                      
the information presented to the public had been skewed and                                                                     
caused misunderstanding amongst the voters.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Phillips asked if the Department had taken an                                                                    
active stand against the wolf initiative.  She requested                                                                        
that information be provided to the Committee as she                                                                            
believed that those remarks should be made public.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde spoke to the philosophical dilemma                                                                             
regarding the initiative process. He noted that Anchorage                                                                       
"Can be the tail that wags the dog of Alaska", which could                                                                      
be unfair to rural Alaska.  Mr. Robus explained that having                                                                     
impartial information before the voters is important.  If                                                                       
unclear information is provided, that will significantly                                                                        
impact an important decision.  He noted that the public will                                                                    
be asked to make the decision.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative Foster asked what right do the urban area                                                                        
residents have to determine what will happen in the rural                                                                       
areas of the State.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative Austerman requested clarification regarding                                                                      
the Department's position.  Mr. Robus testified that the                                                                        
Department should be the responsible party to make policy                                                                       
decisions regarding the animal populations so that they stay                                                                    
stable and sustainable.  Mr. Robus stated that the                                                                              
Department is in support of the initiative process, but that                                                                    
does not mean that they will support an initiative that is                                                                      
bad wildlife management. Representative Phillips requested                                                                      
clarification on that statement.  Mr. Robus reiterated that                                                                     
the Department will not support "bad" wildlife management.                                                                      
Representative Phillips stated that the Department did not                                                                      
take a stand on the wolf initiative.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SUSAN SCHRADER, ALASKA CONSERVATION VOTERS (ACV), JUNEAU,                                                                       
stated that the Alaska Conservation Voters is a not-for-                                                                        
profit organization dedicated to protecting Alaska's                                                                            
environment through public education and advocacy. The forty                                                                    
Alaskan organizations and business members represent over                                                                       
22,000 registered Alaskan voters. ACV has consistently                                                                          
opposed efforts by the Legislature to limit Alaskan's                                                                           
constitutional right to participate directly in the law-                                                                        
making process through the initiative process.  HJR 56 is                                                                       
another attack on that right.                                                                                                   
Ms. Schrader stated that ACV is opposed to HJR 56 for the                                                                       
following reasons:                                                                                                              
? While this proposed amendment to the constitution                                                                             
appears to be limited to initiatives dealing with                                                                               
wildlife, on a more fundamental level, it represents                                                                            
erosion of public access to government. We can debate                                                                           
the "ballot box biology" issue endlessly, but when one                                                                          
group of Alaskans are denied an opportunity to address                                                                          
an issue they strongly believe in by the initiative                                                                             
process, the freedom of all Alaskans to express their                                                                           
will through direct democracy is threatened. Public                                                                             
policy issues addressed by the initiative process                                                                               
receive far more discussion and debate than many of the                                                                         
hundreds of bills passed by the legislature every year.                                                                         
The process is out in the open as contrasted to the                                                                             
often clandestine route bills can take to become law.                                                                           
? Supporters of the resolution endorse placing the                                                                              
scientific process of wildlife management back into the                                                                         
hands of the Department of Fish and Game and the Board                                                                          
of Game. Yet Department of Fish and Game takes                                                                                  
direction from the legislature and the legislature,                                                                             
through its confirmation process, essentially chooses                                                                           
the members of the Board of Game. Thus, the initiative                                                                          
process is an important check on the power of the                                                                               
legislature. Alaskans are being asked to relinquish                                                                             
their right to vote on wildlife management issues on                                                                            
the grounds that we are not competent enough to do so.                                                                          
Instead, we are being told to trust the decisions                                                                               
resulting from a unbalanced process that currently                                                                              
promotes the principles of intensive game management                                                                            
and the values of consumptive users to the near-                                                                                
exclusion of other users.                                                                                                       
? Our Constitution's sustained yield and multiple use                                                                           
provisions have served all Alaskans and our wildlife                                                                            
very well.  It protects the interests of all beneficial                                                                         
users. Those same framers of our constitution who were                                                                          
wise enough to put Article VIII into it, also included                                                                          
the initiative process.  They had faith in the ability                                                                          
of Alaskans to make informed decisions when voting, a                                                                           
faith that evidently is not shared by this Legislature.                                                                         
As the passage of SB 74 last year exemplifies, the                                                                              
Legislature has the power to amend or completely negate                                                                         
a citizen-passed initiative after two years. Thus, it                                                                           
is within the legislature's power to correct any                                                                                
legitimate problems that might result from the                                                                                  
initiative process. Clearly, the Alaska Constitution                                                                            
will not benefit from such tinkering nor will the                                                                               
wildlife of Alaska be "safer" if the initiative process                                                                         
is taken away from the citizens of Alaska.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Phillips referenced the comment that the many                                                                    
citizens have lost faith in the Department of Fish and Game.                                                                    
She asked what ACV would have done if the Department had                                                                        
supported the wolf initiative.  Ms. Schrader replied that                                                                       
the group has lost faith in the entire system.  She noted                                                                       
that a polling process has indicated that most voters do                                                                        
respect the biologists at the Department.  They look to the                                                                     
Department for guidance on such issues.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Phillips inquired if the Board of Game had                                                                       
come out with a well-balanced response, what would ACV done                                                                     
with that information.  Ms. Schrader replied that she could                                                                     
only speak for herself and that if she had convincing                                                                           
evidence, it would have made her think very carefully about                                                                     
the issue.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Phillips stated that if the wisdom of                                                                            
Department of Fish and Game and the "elected officials was                                                                      
not good enough", she asked, who would be good enough to                                                                        
make these policy decisions.  Ms. Schrader responded that                                                                       
the line between science and public policy was being                                                                            
"blurred".  The issue of intense game management is not                                                                         
purely science.  It is public policy.  Clearly, many                                                                            
Alaskan's believe that the Legislature is not the best body                                                                     
to provide public policy.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative Phillips asked if, during the initiative                                                                         
process, had ACV met with the Board of Fish and Game.  Ms.                                                                      
Schrader explained that ACV was not in existence at that                                                                        
time.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
In response to Representative Bunde, Ms. Schrader commented                                                                     
that democratic process can get "dirty" sometimes. Ms.                                                                          
Schrader and Committee members discussed the term non-                                                                          
consumptive users.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative Morgan interjected that the initiative                                                                           
process will give the people the constitutional right to                                                                        
vote.  It will allow Alaskans the right to decide how to                                                                        
manage their resources.  Ms. Schrader replied that depending                                                                    
on the outcome of the vote, it could be the last time the                                                                       
voters had the right to vote on wildlife issues.  Ms.                                                                           
Schrader stated if the resolution passes the Legislature and                                                                    
the proposition goes on the ballot, the majority of Alaskans                                                                    
would choose to give up their right on wildlife issues and                                                                      
"that would be it".                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative Foster questioned if there could be a more                                                                       
important issue to rural Alaskan than to be able to support                                                                     
their family through consumptive use.  Ms. Schrader agreed                                                                      
that there is nothing as important as putting food on the                                                                       
table.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
(TAPE CHANGE HFC 00 - 71, Side 1).                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Schrader added that the issue is more complicated than                                                                      
that, and it includes recreational hunting.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Austerman voiced frustrations on the non-                                                                        
consumptive vocabulary.  He pointed out that most people in                                                                     
the State are conservative.  He admitted that the issue of                                                                      
whether the Alaskan people should have the right to vote                                                                        
warrants consideration.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde and Representative J. Davies discussed the                                                                     
concept of non-consumptive use versus consumptive use.                                                                          
There are complexities on both sides of the issues.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
JOEL BENNETT, DEFENDERS OF WILDLIFE, JUNEAU, explained that                                                                     
he is an active hunter and has traveled extensively in the                                                                      
Bush for work and recreation.  Additionally, he has served                                                                      
on the Board of Fish and Game.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
He commented that the HJR 56 is "spiteful" and that it is a                                                                     
"special interest" piece of legislation being promoted by                                                                       
one particular interest in the State.  Mr. Bennett                                                                              
emphasized that there are supporters that consistently try                                                                      
to dismantle the legislation that the voters passed.  The                                                                       
public recognizes the proposed bill for what it is.  The                                                                        
bill singles out wildlife.  The public has a fundamental                                                                        
right to the democratic process.  Mr. Bennett stated that it                                                                    
is a misguided effort to single out a certain area.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bennett provided a brief overview of the 1996                                                                               
Initiative.  He noted that he was actively engaged in that                                                                      
issue.  That effort was not an out of State effort.  He                                                                         
noted that the steering committee consisted of former                                                                           
Governor Hammond and the Commissioner of Department of Fish                                                                     
and Game.  It was an in State effort consisting of many                                                                         
Alaskans.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bennett applauded the effort made by Representative                                                                         
Williams last year, to address the initiative process and                                                                       
make it better.  He emphasized that to eliminate the                                                                            
fundamental right to do this would be wrong.  The 1996                                                                          
initiative did not seek to ruin the Bush and that it passed                                                                     
overwhelming in the Bush.  It was not a broad based effort                                                                      
with board based support.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bennett argued that he was responsible for the media in                                                                     
the 1996 election process and that the public was not                                                                           
"tricked".  The public was clear about what they were voting                                                                    
on.  Some will always say that the media is distorted and                                                                       
misrepresenting.  He commented that the American pubic is                                                                       
sophisticated in terms of media.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
In conclusions, Mr. Bennett stated that the public process                                                                      
is in grave danger by having the right to participate taken                                                                     
away.  Unless there is broad public support for major                                                                           
wildlife issues, they will never be able to implement them.                                                                     
Unless the process becomes more inclusive and                                                                                   
representative, the victories will not be long-term.  He                                                                        
encouraged members of the Legislature to try to improve the                                                                     
process of the Board of Game so that more citizens can                                                                          
participate and believe that their opinions can be heard.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative Phillips asked if the Department of Fish and                                                                     
Game had come out with sound, biological, scientific                                                                            
information as to why they opposed the initiative, what                                                                         
would Mr. Bennett's group have done.  Mr. Bennett replied                                                                       
that these decisions are more than biology.  The proper rule                                                                    
of the board is to factor in public opinion.  He emphasized                                                                     
that everything is not based on biology alone.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Therriault requested to look at the TV commercial                                                                      
created for the 1996 vote. He pointed out the accompanying                                                                      
fiscal note.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Foster MOVED to report HJR 57 out of                                                                             
Committee with individual recommendations and the                                                                               
accompanying fiscal note.  Representative J. Davies                                                                             
OBJECTED.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative Austerman objected for the purpose of                                                                            
discussion, clarifying his philosophy on the initiative                                                                         
issue, stating that it is good and that it should be                                                                            
available. He reiterated that the public does have a right                                                                      
to participate.  He noted that Representative Williams does                                                                     
have a piece of legislation which will address the                                                                              
initiative process.  He did not believe that this is an                                                                         
issue of urban versus rural.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies reiterated comments made by                                                                            
Representative Austerman in support of Representative                                                                           
Williams proposed legislation. He commented that that the                                                                       
State is on "dangerous, slippery ground" when political                                                                         
dialogue becomes separate from the public process.  He                                                                          
provided an example of where biology and public policy is                                                                       
involved, asking if we should teach evolution in the public                                                                     
schools.  He stressed that there is a distinction between                                                                       
science and public policy.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
The Board of Game hears the scientific concerns and then                                                                        
makes the choice.  From a biological point of view, it does                                                                     
not make a difference, but from a public point of view, it                                                                      
does.  He questioned where the process would stop.                                                                              
Silencing the peoples vote is dangerous.  Representative J.                                                                     
Davies stated that the right approach would be to allow                                                                         
discussion which "generally averages out in the middle".                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde commented that this is an interesting                                                                          
challenge between the democratic process and wisdom and                                                                         
concern.  He asked why fish were being left out of the vote.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
A roll call vote was taken on the motion.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
IN FAVOR: Foster, Moses, Phillips, Williams, Austerman,                                                                         
Bunde, Therriault                                                                                                               
OPPOSED:  J. Davies                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative Grussendorf, Representative G. Davis and Co-                                                                     
Chair Mulder were not present for the voter.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The MOTION PASSED (7-1).                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
HJR 56 was reported out of Committee with a "do pass"                                                                           
recommendation and with a fiscal note by the Office of the                                                                      
Lt. Governor dated 3/3/00.                                                                                                      
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
The meeting adjourned at 5:00 P.M.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
H.F.C. 15 3/16/00 p.m.                                                                                                          

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